Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons

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The project page associated with this discussion page is an official policy on Wikipedia. It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. Before you update the page, make sure that changes you make to this policy really do reflect consensus.

To discuss issues with specific biographies or personal mentions, please use the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard.

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[edit] OK, how about carrots instead of sticks?

A contest to improve referencing on BLPs like ---> ta-daaaa this one. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:34, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] After deletion?

I propose to revise "after" to "before". Because BLP-violated revision should be deleted permamently. If admins find BLP-violated material, move XXX to "XXX/del (number or date)" and delete it and revert moving, and restore. It can be efficient to remove material permamantly. Simply,

Find → move "XXX" to "XXX/delete" → Revision delete (delete problematic revision and restore stable revision) → move "XXX/delete" to "XXX".

In fact, in kowp, RevisionDeletion is common. I think making {{revdelete-blp}} will be good.--Kwj2772 (talk) 03:54, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Organisations

Organisations such as companies have a legal personality and laws regarding defamation include them too. This page does not make it clear whether this policy covers them too. Is this covered elsewhere or do we need to add a section clarifying this aspect? Colonel Warden (talk) 13:08, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

This policy only covers actual living human beings. We have a seperate policy on Wikipedia:Libel. WAS 4.250 (talk) 15:01, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What is the policy on the deceased?

I just reverted a whole page of re-inserted libelous and irrelevant unsourced material and gave someone a big lecture on WP:BLP. And then I remembered - oops, the guy is dead!! It would be helpful if this article could have a short sentence or section on what the policy is for deceased. Or link to that policy if it is elsewhere. I assume it is the same as any other article. But if one can/should more quickly delete/revert controversial/libelous material and if one can use the various templates on the top of the page, that should be made explicit. Thanks!! CarolMooreDC (talk) 01:42, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

A splendid case where WP "policy" and "real life" intersect. Now, were I king, I would change BLP to include any "modern person biography" as opposed to "really dead a long time ago biography" to solve this problem. Collect (talk) 02:29, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Dead people are covered by the same policies, including WP:V and WP:NPOV, as all other article besides living people. But WP:BLP only applies to living people. Repeated efforts to broaden that policy to apply to non-living people have been rebuffed. In part, that's to maintain the special status of living people. It might be worthwhile to note that, even in the articles of dead people, references to living people (friends, family, etc.) are still covered by the policy. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:38, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

As I said - I would extend coverage of BLP and not rely on just WP:V (which is an extraordinarily wide avenue to insert defamation through) and WP:NPOV which is honored more in its absence on controversial people than any other guideline. Perahps WP is better off that my opinion is not the current guideline <g>. Collect (talk) 02:41, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

You can't defame dead people.[1] ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:47, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

An interesting claim. Depends on the state or nation, to be sure. [2] [3] notes that defamation of dead persons is an offense in 20 states. See also [4] Specifically Florida law provides that a defamation lawsuuit, for example, survives the death of the plaintiff. (rad all the article - it is interesting). Absolute statements tend to be wrong <g>. Collect (talk) 03:32, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

If that's true, then looks like we need to make it part of policy. Does attorney have to be consulted first? I know very well known people have control of their "images" and perhaps their heirs could sue over libel on those grounds as well, and those are people most likely to get bad edits. Any proposals for revised language? CarolMooreDC (talk) 22:51, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

WP tends to be pragmatic and not dogmatic on policies -- were I king, as I noted above, I would probably err on the side of caution with regard to any defamatory material. Collect (talk) 02:46, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

The present godking mandated the current WP:BLP policy. Anyway, I'd object to extending the policy on living people to cover dead people as well, unless we're also going to make it the general policy for all articles. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:38, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

First, I don't get the godking joke. And I was serious about merely asking attorneys if there are laws making a basis for lawsuits on defamation of the deceased.

Can we consense that there should be a reference to the deceased in the article and it should say that all relevant wikipedia policies, especially WP:RS, should be strictly applied? CarolMooreDC (talk) 03:49, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

This policy is a portmanteau of several other policies. In practice, the policies that are emphasized in this one apply to all other statements including those about dead people, but the statements about living people have the potential to do more harm, which is why we have the emphasis.

If you would remove a dubious statement about somebody if they were still alive, you should probably remove it when they're dead, but obviously we have our work cut out applying it to living people so expending as much diligence on the dead would not help us to achieve the object of this policy.

Don't go especially looking for dubious statements about Julius Caesar, unless you're specifically interested in improving our coverage of that historical figure or Republican Rome in general. Do remove or repair tripe if you find it, wherever you may find it. Do be aware that articles about dead people may contain statements about living people, and those are covered by this policy. --TS 06:03, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I've decided to have a go at it. Please see my new section titled Dealing with articles about the deceased. --TS 07:39, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict of interest guidelines

I'm trying to get the conflict of interest guidelines rewritten to be clearer in terms of what is allowable from people with conflicts of interest. At the moment they seem to allow most edits, but there are also several parts saying COI editing is strongly discouraged. It is not clear whether COI editing is generally unacceptable or only when it results in bad edits. I have written a proposed revision of the guidelines, but because of my own conflict of interest I really don't want to make any kind of change without consensus. Since obviously BLP and COI are fairly closely connected, people who monitor this should put forward their thoughts at User talk:Helenalex/coirewrite or on the conflict of interest guidelines talkpage. --Helenalex (talk) 05:36, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

It would be easier to advise you on your proposed business than to get people to reform the COI guideline. It's ambiguous, and people seem to like it that way! I assume you've taken a look at Wikipedia:FAQ/Organization. Do any of the concerns listed there seem likely to limit what you can do in your proposed business? It makes a big difference how transparent you intend to be, and what you have said already is a good start. I can't see your work being approved unless you can provide a channel for us to pass questions to the company hiring you, and their identity should be in the open. You'd need to establish that you had been given the rights to any material from the company that would go into WP. A better place to ask the question on your business may be over at WP:COIN. If you think you can't make progress without changing the guideline, the place to propose that is WT:COI. If you Google search for MyWikiBiz you may get some ideas of what can go wrong with this sort of business, which is not to say you couldn't make a go of it. See also our own article on MyWikiBiz. EdJohnston (talk) 06:17, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Images used under fair use

What does policy say about sing copywrighted images under fair use to illustrate a living person? DFS454 (talk) 10:46, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Only allowed if the image passes the Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria which are more stricter than the legal term fair use. Garion96 (talk) 11:04, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Straw poll on 'trial' implementation of FlaggedRevisions

The discussion on the implementation of a 'trial' configuration of FlaggedRevisions on en.wiki has now reached the 'straw poll' stage. All editors are invited to read the proposal and discussion and to participate in the straw poll. Happy‑melon 18:07, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Dealing with articles about the deceased

I've been bold and added this to the policy:

Dealing with articles about the deceased

The provisions of this policy apply specifically to living people. The absence of a specific policy applying to the deceased should not be taken as a reason not to remove dubious and unsourced information from Wikipedia.

The main reason for this section is that we from time to time get people asking questions here like "what about the recently deceased?" This is the best answer I can think up that is compatible with my perception of consensus on the matter.

Please revert and discuss if for some reason this looks like it doesn't belong. --TS 07:36, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

That's a little mind twisting. How about something like this, in italics as last sentence of lead:

This policy applies equally to biographies of living persons and to biographical material about living persons on other pages. The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia, but especially for edits about living persons, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material. In the case of deceased individuals, material still must comply with all wikipedia policies and speedy deletion of questionable material is proper.

Of course, it also could mention whether it is proper to put up BLP tags... CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:00, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Your suggested wording looks okay to me. --TS 06:01, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I've replaced the section with your suggested wording, except for "speedy deletion" (which has a specific meaning on Wikipedia) I have used the phrase "prompt removal". --TS 13:07, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Great! CarolMooreDC (talk) 15:33, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Burden

This policy says: "In order to ensure that biographical material of living people is always policy-compliant, written neutrally to a high standard, and based on good quality reliable sources, the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete disputed material."

I think we should add a sentence that "This burden applies not just to verifiability of sources, but to all other Wikipedia content policies and guidelines." This already seems self-evident from the policy, but I have been encountering people who don't quite get it.Ferrylodge (talk) 17:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Burden of proof link

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons&diff=next&oldid=228847935 The edit of 23:13 30 July 08 replaced an instance of 'burden of evidence' with a link to the Law page 'burden of proof'. This is misleading; it has already lead to one unnecessary disagreement :

The "burden of evidence" line is from WP:BLP, and it refers to the burden of proof that something is suitable to be included in a Wikipedia article. The fact that something is TRUE is not enough to satisfy the burden of proof. It must meet all of Wikipedia’s core content policies, and you have the burden of proving that it meets the content policies in order to include or restore material.Ferrylodge (talk) 17:18, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I will not have readers of this page misled in this manner. You will check your facts before inserting misleading material. The burden of proof you linked to is from Law, not WP rules. You have presented no evidence that the 'burden of evidence', which I knew was from BLP, thanks, is referring to a Law. WTF. Someone do something about this. I think the word you are looking for is Verifiability, WP:V, and I already addressed that. To reiterate: the material is cited. Anarchangel (talk) 18:57, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

The words "burden of evidence" in WP:BLP is linked to the burden of proof article. Regardless, my reading of WP:BLP doesn't seem to indicate that adding a cite is automatically enough to meet this burden. Could you show me from where you got this notion?LedRush (talk) 19:10, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

The law is an enlightening look at the concept behind the WP rule basis, but it is too easily confused with an actual WP rule. The phrase 'burden of evidence' and 'burden of proof' are used seemingly interchangeably on the mainspace page. Anarchangel (talk) 20:23, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

The wikilink to burden of evidence is fine. The wikilinked article covers the subject generally, not just legally, and has a section on Burden_of_proof#Science_and_other_uses. Maybe the wikilink has been in this policy for six months because it's appropriate?Ferrylodge (talk) 21:54, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm - the burden of evidence link seems fine - does a good job of explaining the concept. Kelly ^hi! 06:02, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Coatrack

I reverted the removal of a link to Wikipedia:Coatrack, an essay from te "Criticism and praise" section. I don't think there's a problem with removing this if it isn't useful (and I could be convinced of that), but it seems a bit much to summarily remove it after eighteen months.

I'm in favor of keeping it unless there are good reasons to remove. Anybody else with strong feelings about this, either way? --TS 00:42, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I suspect it came up in a discussion, and someone felt it was inconvenient to have it on such an important page. Collect (talk) 00:45, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I propose that the essay can be replaced by an established guideline instead, such as Wikipedia:POVFORK. travb (talk) 00:54, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Has this issue, perchance, come up in a discussion you are involved in? Collect (talk) 02:17, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

• I'm inclined to keep it. COATRACK isn't policy, but not because people don't subscribe widely to its tenents. It isn't policy because it is just a description of an article style. Protonk (talk) 03:12, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Guidelines for the Biographicon

Editors of Wikipedia biographies of living persons may be interested in examining Guidelines - The Biographicon.
-- Wavelength (talk) 05:01, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Which basically has WP articles <g>. Collect (talk) 17:50, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Quality of source in addition to quantity of sources

This guideline currently reads: "Wikipedia includes dates of birth for some well-known living persons where the dates have been widely published, but exercise caution with less notable people." [Emphasis added.] I would like to propose that the sentence be changed to something along the lines of the following:

Wikipedia includes dates of birth for some well-known persons where the dates:

• have been published in one or more reliable sources linked to the persons such that it may reasonably be inferred that the persons do not object to their release; or
• have otherwise been widely published.

Caution should be exercised with less notable people.

Where a notable living person's date of birth appears in a source of the nature described above (for instance, where the person is a legislator, the official website of the legislature of which he or she is a member), that should be sufficient for BLP, even if the information does not also appear elsewhere. The appearance of the date of birth in such a source should be regarded as confirmation that the subject has endorsed or at least does not object to the release of the information. Quality should count as much as quantity. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 17:38, 9 January 2009 (UTC)