Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion

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Read this before proposing new criteria

Contributors frequently propose new criteria for speedy deletion. Please bear in mind that CSD criteria need to be very carefully worded, and in particular, need to be:

Objective: most reasonable people should be able to agree whether an article meets the criterion. Often this requires making the criterion very specific.
Uncontestable: it must be the case that almost all articles that could be deleted using the rule, should be deleted, according to general consensus. CSD criteria should only cover situations where there is a strong precedent for deletion. Don't forget that a rule may be used in a way you don't expect if not carefully worded.
Frequent: speedy deletion is intended primarily as a means of reducing load on other deletion methods such as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion and Wikipedia:Proposed deletion. These processes are more discerning because they treat articles on a case-by-case basis and incorporate many viewpoints; CSD sacrifices these advantages for speed and efficiency. If a situation arises only rarely, it's probably easier, simpler, and fairer to delete it via one of these other methods instead. This also keeps CSD as simple and easy to remember as possible, and avoids instruction creep.
Nonredundant: if the deletion can be accomplished using a reasonable interpretation of an existing rule, just use that. If this application of that rule is contested, consider discussing and/or clarifying it. New rules should only be proposed to cover situations that cannot be speedy deleted otherwise.

If you do have a proposal that you believe passes these guidelines, please feel free to propose it on this discussion page. Be prepared to offer evidence of these points and to refine your criterion if necessary. Consider explaining how it meets these criteria when you propose it. Do not, on the other hand, add it unilaterally to the CSD page.

Oft referenced pages

Wikipedia:Deletion policy (talk)
Deletion log
Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators (talk)
Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion/Explanations, explanations of the reasons for each criterion

Archives (Index)

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32 This talk page is automatically archived by MiszaBot II. Any sections older than 7 days are automatically archived. Sections with fewer than two timestamps (no replies) are not archived.
About archives

1 Deletion of old IP talk pages
2 Today's change to G8 to include images without a "parent page"
3 Slightly off-topic - semi-automated transwiki to reduce IFD backlog
4 Does G10 apply to pages that attack groups?
5 A10
6 Proposed amendment to criterion A2
7 Tumbleweed (diaspore)
8 Proposed change to intro and to Redirect: Spell out that reverting is good

[edit] Deletion of old IP talk pages

User:MZMcBride has posted on WP:User page some criteria for deleting certain IP talk pages which haven't been edited for over a year, and is using this as rationale for deleting thousands of them.

I have suggested to him that the proper process through which pages are deleted without discussion on Wikipedia is Speedy Deletion, and that this is the place to propose new criteria for deleting such pages.

I have been told (see User talk:MZMcBride#Wikipedia:OLDIP) that I am wrong. So I thought I would ask for opinion here. My concern is that these pages are being deleted by the backdoor. I believe these deletions are controversial and further scrutiny would be beneficial.

See also the discussion on WT:User page. Thanks, Martin 12:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

The deletions are perfectly fine and uncontroversial in my opinion. If you insist on labeling them with a specific CSD then g6 should suffice. Other pages have been being deleted in a similar fashion for a couple of years. - Rjd0060 (talk) 14:17, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed - there's no reason why we would want to keep these pages. No-one is going to take action on year-old warnings, as the IP will probably have been reassigned, and the exceptions at WP:USER seem adequate. This is also at WP:AN: [1]. Hut 8.5 14:30, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that there a few very specific requirements that a page must meet in order to be deleted by this means, which are listed at WP:OLDIP. - Rjd0060 (talk) 14:47, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

ARGH... I hate forum shopping... I don't mind this if it were to inform this page that a discussion is ongoing elsewhere: here and here --- Plus Mz's talk page. We don't need a third discussion going on here as well. I think we need to consolodate these three conversations into one area an hash out specifics for incorporating this into G6 or a new criteria.---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloonTake the CSD Survey 15:00, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

If we're looking at a new CSD criterion, it should be a U-series. But I agree that the discussion should be consolidated. Come back here if there is consensus that there shoudl be a CSD criterion, and we can hammer out the details. Happy‑melon 15:04, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, if we're going that route...it should include CAT:TEMP pages also. I proposed this months ago. See here for that discussion. I still believe that a new criterion would be the best idea, but it should include those considered "OLDIP" and those "TEMP". Otherwise, I'm still thinking that these pages meet g6. - Rjd0060 (talk) 15:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I can see it fitting under G6, if we reword G6... but I am inclined to make it a new category based upon the criteria required. (Or we would need to create a link to a page defining the criteria.)---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloonTake the CSD Survey 17:15, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

As presented at WT:USER, this would not really be a kind of CSD, but more of a housekeeping task for an adminbot. --Kralizec! (talk) 02:29, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Six of one and half a dozen of the other. I originally used CSD G6 and people griped. So I added it to WP:UP using a redirect, WP:OLDIP. You all work out where you'd like the explanation to sit and just edit the redirect when you all have made a decision. (Just be sure to add <span id="oldip"></span> to the target page.) Cheers. :-) --MZMcBride (talk) 19:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate the point about keeping the discussion in one place (although somewhat disappointed to see it labelled as forum shopping). I only came here because I think this is the place where it should have been discussed originally; in hindsight, a link would probably have been better. Anyway based on the various discussions, consensus seems (to me) to be saying

these deletions do have support
G6 does not adaquately cover them

Personally I would feel happier if such a large number of deletions were supported by an appropriate speedy deletion criterion, and I think that a new criterion in the U-series is probably the best route to take. I will take this back to the other discussions and then, depending on the result, bring it back here to discuss the details. Martin 18:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

So I'm guessing that this is now the consolidated discussion?
In my opinion G6 covers these deletions perfectly well, I see them as a prime example of housekeeping. I'm quite happy with the current solution: link to WP:OLDIP, and the section in the guideline there describes the deletions as "routine housekeeping", per consensus. I wouldn't suggest adding that case into the "such as" phrase of the actual criterion, since this is a purely automatic task, and I don't want to encourage editors wasting their (and the admins) time by tagging any such pages (I'm sure that would happen).
Similarily, creating a seperate criterion for it seems unnecessary. Detailed specification of deletion criteria is good when it touches the encyclopaedic content, with housekeeping tasks it is overspecification. --Amalthea 23:34, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

It's been added to G6 now, with reversed wording (by an IP, which is only appropriate). I can live with it that way. --Amalthea 11:49, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, I thought the conclusion of the above seemed to be that it should be a new U-criterion, and that CAT:TEMP could be incorporated into it as well. Martin 12:11, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

After re-reading all five discussions I see no consensus either way. What I'm reading is consensus that those deletions are non-controversial.
To bring CAT:TEMP into the fold, a section could be set up at e.g. WP:INDEFUP, similar in spirit to WP:OLDIP: Write down current practise, and call it non-controversial housekeeping. --Amalthea 12:50, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think deleting old IP talk pages is good policy. I've been editing from dynamic IP addresses for many years so I've used a lot of them, and I've engaged in discussion on several of their usertalk pages that are relevant to articles that I was editing at the time, and sometimes I even refer back to those old discussions. I will put a comment on WT:UP about it. 208.120.235.110 (talk) 02:26, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Today's change to G8 to include images without a "parent page"

When did this change get discussed? The edit summary says "wording per discussion." The change is that G8/Pages dependent on a non-existent or deleted page just got updated to include images that are "images categorized as Self-published work where the parent article has never existed or has been deleted and that are non-encyclopedic." Maybe it's because of the New Year fogging my eyeballs, but I'm not seeing any discussion. Can some kind soul point it out to me? Personally, I don't think this fits G4 and I don't think it should be a speedy criteria, send it to IFD. However, if it's been discussed thoroughly and I just missed the discussion, well, "you snooze, you lose." Self-published works generally qualify to be transwikied to the commons anyways. Once they are transwikied, they qualify for speedy deletion under CSD:I8. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 10:35, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I've reverted the change. I can't imagine that any discussion would cause that to be a G rather than an I, either. Protonk (talk) 10:39, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Certainly this should be added to an I-series criterion, not a G-series. Happy‑melon 11:29, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

"images categorized as Self-published work where the parent article has never existed or has been deleted and that are non-encyclopedic" was removed from G8 with a note that "I don't recall that discussion on WT:CSD." I am restoring it, because I do. :) It's at Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 31#New "i12"? and Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 32#G6 G8 - proposal from "archive". Consensus seems to have been in that discussion that it was better under G8 than as an image type, which was what was initially proposed. (I've reverted myself because it seems consensus may be emerging contrary to the previous discussion, linked.) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:30, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Moonriddengirl ^(talk) is correct. The issues that both Protonk (talk) and davidwr/(talk) raise have been discussed. I asked if there was any issues with wording before it was placed and there was zero response. I had planned on inserting on January 1 pending any further comments, the discussions was archived on that day as well so I inserted it.

For those who do not want to read the archives - "in a nutshell" - November 21, 2008 I proposed a "new" "i12" - which would be an image based CSD. Amalthea^Talk asked if there were many images that would warrant a new criteria and lifebaka++ indicated that, overall, any sort of image was already covered. A discussion followed asking about specific images and what criteria would best cover them. I raised the issue that criteria for deletions "where the parent article has never existed or has been deleted" already existed for articles, talk pages and even "image pages" and it was the fact none of them specifically said "images" I was asking/proposing the new criteria. Per the discussion and the responses I started experimenting with simply using the {{db}} tag and adding "See G6 and G8" as the reason. Skier Dude (talk) suggested that they would "like to see for this very specific type of image that's being discussed is that the G6 (as part of "non-controversial maintenance") can be "expanded" to include this" but added on that "It's sort of akin to to making an G8 for images (images used on a deleted page...)". On December 1, 2008 I made a clear proposal for G6. Moonriddengirl ^(talk) asked how it would relate to certain types of images and the result of that conversation was the addition of "and that are non-encyclopedic." A new, and "more official", proposal was made on December 2, 2008. Moonriddengirl ^(talk) said that is was fine and suggested it be publicized elsewhere. Anomie ⚔ was not fully sure what the issue was in reading over the thread however the editor never came back to respond to the answer(s) given. WODUP seemed fine with the proposal and suggested using "...and that cannot be used in another article" rather than "unencyclopedic" because they felt the "meaning is more clear when it's replaced with wording that mentions the image's ability to be used in another article". On December 3 lifebaka++ said they opposed changes to G6 and "The nature of the proposed addition is more in line with G8 than with G6." On December 10 I asked if the line should "get inserted into G6 or G8? The suggestion was G6 and however one editor has said it should be inserted into G8. other opinions?" The full thread was archived so I brought back the core proposal to the main talk space G6 - proposal from "archive". On December 18 Happy‑melon said they did not like this going under a "G" category and asked if it could be an extension of i10. I replied that i10 is specifically not for images. They made no further comment. David Eppstein (talk) said it was not in the "spirit of G6" and summarized that "It's reasonable to put this under a speedy category, but I don't think G6 is the right one." On December 24, in re-reading the entire thread, I agreed that it should not be under G6 and did, as lifebaka++ pointed out, go more in line with G8. The proposal was changed to reflect the addition to G8. I laid it out and asked "Any wording issues?". As there were none the line was added. As the line has now been removed, thusly challenged, I will repost it below for further comments. Soundvisions1 (talk) 16:17, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] G8 proposal (from archive)

Please see archives:

Ok, so if I am reading the entire thread - including the archived portion - we can not create a new CSD for orphaned images. It was suggested by one Admin to add expand G6. However there appears to be more of a slant towards G8. In re-reading the overall wording of both G6 and G8 I agree that G8 reads better resting place for this. So the expanded G8 will read (New additions in Red):

8. Pages dependent on a non-existent or deleted page, such as talk pages with no corresponding subject page, subpages with no parent page, image pages without a corresponding image, images categorized as Self-published work where the parent article has never existed or has been deleted and that are non-encyclopedic or redirects to invalid targets, such as nonexistent targets, redirect loops, and bad titles. Also categories populated by deleted or retargeted templates. This excludes any page which is useful to the project, and in particular: deletion discussions that are not logged elsewhere, user and user talk pages, talk page archives, plausible redirects that can be changed to valid targets, and image pages or talk pages for images that exist on Wikimedia Commons.

Any wording issues? Soundvisions1 (talk) 00:07, 24 December 2008 (UTC) (reposted by Soundvisions1 (talk) 16:17, 1 January 2009 (UTC))

1. The new wording doesn't logically fit as part of criterion G8; it simply has nothing to do with the issue in question.

2. How does one define a free image's "parent article"? I'm unfamiliar with such a concept.

If I were to upload a photograph of my Pontiac Vibe without transcluding it or specifying any uses, would the "parent article" be Pontiac Vibe? What about Automobile, Station wagon, Pontiac or NUMMI?

If someone were to upload a photograph of a box of candy labeled "Choco Drops," would that be considered to have no "parent article" because we don't have a Choco Drops article? If so, what if that article subsequently were created? Or what if the image would have made a fine addition to the Gumdrop article, Chocolate article, Candy article or article about the [fictional] product's manufacturer? Of course, there's another qualification that must be met, and this leads me to...

3. Why do we want sysops unilaterally determining that unused images are "non-encyclopedic"? As noted above, isn't that what IfD is for?

4. Lastly, the new wording describes any self-published image uploaded for use outside mainspace (on user pages, project pages, et cetera), which certainly could be said to have no "parent article" and to be "non-encyclopedic." —David Levy 17:08, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

1. "Parent article" wording doesn't make sense. What is the parent article of "Desert Scene at sunset, near Reno Nevada"?

2. In general, anything that qualifies for the commons and which wouldn't be deleted from there for whatever reason should not be deleted from here. Many an orphan image at IFD has been transwikied to the commons. If an IFD result would be anything other than "delete/no transwiki" then it should not be speedy deleted.

davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 17:17, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

To answer the davids - please read the full threads because most of what you asked was already discussed and explained with examples. If you don't want to read the threads archive than please reads the wordings of G6, G8, A9, i5, i10, C1 and U2 for the concept of the wording and how it came about. The "logic" of how it came to be a "G8" and not "G6", or a new "i12", criteria all together has been explained. To try and address the specific questions not asked in the discussion already: the parent article of "Desert Scene at sunset, near Reno Nevada" is unclear in the question. If this were a title of a stand alone article it would, in itself, be the "parent article". If it were the name of an image on a desert at sunset with Reno visible in the background and named "Desert Scene at sunset, near Reno Nevada" than it would be clear, used in an article or not, what the image was. Depending on how the image looked, in other words if the image were "encyclopedic", it could, and most likely should - used or not - be moved to Commons. The same answer would apply to the question "If I were to upload a photograph of my Pontiac Vibe without transcluding it or specifying any uses" what would the "parent article" be. That aspect, in the context of how this proposal came about, would not matter because, as with the "Desert Scene at sunset, near Reno Nevada", if the image was of a "Pontiac Vibe" and it was encyclopedic it should be kept and/or moved to Commons. The exact same answer also applies to the "Choco Drops" question. As for how one would define "parent article" I would offer that if the phrase is unclear by more than just the two David's above than the phrase, and similarly worded phrases, may need to be made more clear in the existing criteria and guidelines found throughout Wikipedia. In brief, when a specific file is contained on a related, specific, page than that page would be be the "parent". As an image example - an image called "Me at my birthday" and used on "USER:Me"'s userpage would indicate the "parent article" to be "USER:Me". In other uses - a page that contained an article about "Me love jelly" that was tied to a comment about "jelly" on the main "USER:Me" page would indicate that "USER:Me" was the "parent article" (or "parent page"). On mainspace one could look at World Trade Center as an example. This could be considered the "parent article" for those looking to find out about the Construction of the World Trade Center, Top of the World Trade Center Observatories, Windows on the World or 1993 World Trade Center bombing. While all of these, and several other related articles, could stand on their own without the "parent article" it only because the "parent" subject exist(ed). In short it becomes more "encyclopedic" because it has a relevant "parent". Soundvisions1 (talk) 19:21, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

1. I'll read the threads when I get a chance, but you can't expect every sysop to do so before applying our CSD. The wording should be clear and unambiguous, and it isn't.

2. Frankly, it doesn't matter how you arrived at the wording and the decision to add it to criterion G8. What matters is whether the addition is appropriate, and I believe that it isn't. At the very least, it should be reworded and added elsewhere (as it has absolutely nothing to do with criterion G8), but I don't understand how the basic concept is even feasible.

3. I'm aware that term "parent" can refer to a page on which something is transcluded. But the images in question aren't transcluded in any articles, so how is one supposed to define "the parent article" (and why should such a determination be left to a random sysop)? Why is it reasonable to assume that there's only one?

4. You refer above to a user page as an "article," which is incorrect. The term "article" refers exclusively to pages in the main namespace.

5. Again, what qualifies a sysop to unilaterally deem images (apart from obvious examples already covered by other CSD, such as those of a blatantly vandalistic nature) "non-encyclopedic"? —David Levy 22:05, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

1. I do not care if every editor who comes in and reads this goes back to read the full threads but when the same questions are asked that have been discussed it seems easiest for the person asking to simply go back and read. I did do an "in a nutshell" version, in the same way that each and every CSD has a "nutshell" version and the same way as each and every CSD notice has a "nutshell" version. When someone asks "why was my [fill in the blank] deleted?" it is not out of the norm to tell that person to "see [fill in the blank]" or provide a link to the "parent" that fully explains this.

2. I think if you actually had been involved in the conversation(s) or read them you would see why it relates. The implication that I pulled this random line out of my ass and inserted today without any discussion is wrong. As I have said I introduced this as a possible new image based criteria on November 21 and it ended up, by discussion, as a general criteria.

3. Already answered directly and, say it with me, in the archived discussions.

4. I tried to be careful and said "page", not article. In looking over I did say "userpage" and did say "if a page contained an article..." but if that is what you mean and are invoking Monty Python skits please don't. ;)

5. When files, or articles, are tagged or nominated (CSD, PROD, AFD, IFD, PUI, MFD - whatever) they are done because someone (One need not be an admin to do this) has used the criteria, policy and/or guideline they feel best describes the situation. When an admin comes along they too use their own reading to see if that does applies. Only you can answer fully the question of "what qualifies a sysop to unilaterally deem images "non-encyclopedic"?" But if you do have issues with use of the word "encyclopedic" than I am guessing you also have issues with many other policies and guidelines at Wikipedia. Better to direct specific questions here at specific editors who raised specific points that lead to the specific wording that has been proposed. As I said in number 2 this is not something I did alone and pulled out of my ass this morning. Soundvisions1 (talk) 23:38, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

1. Yes, when someone asks a question that's been answered before, it makes sense to point him/her to the earlier discussion. I'm not criticising that. I'm saying that most sysops aren't going to come here and ask questions, let alone read the archives; they're just going to apply their interpretation of the CSD. The wording, therefore, needs to be clear and unambiguous. As I said, a literal reading prescribes the deletion of any image uploaded for use outside of the main namespace, which doesn't appear to have been the intention.

2. I'm not claiming that you created this addition unilaterally. But I just read the archived threads in their entirety, and while I see a suggestion to add the new text to criterion G8 (because of its incompatibility with criterion G6), I see no explanation of how this is logical.

And frankly, I also see nothing remotely resembling consensus for the text's addition. You're quite correct that some of the issues raised above were discussed back then, but they don't appear to have been resolved. That several other editors independently expressed the same concerns only bolsters the assertion that this addition is problematic.

3. I neither understand whatever answer you're providing nor see this covered in the archived discussions. And I don't appreciate being spoken down to ("say it with me").

4. I'm not trying to be funny. You wrote the following:

As an image example - an image called "Me at my birthday" and used on "USER:Me"'s userpage would indicate the "parent article" to be "USER:Me".

5. I'm not criticising the use of the term "non-encyclopedic." I'm saying that it's inappropriate for someone (sysop or not) to unilaterally determine that something fits that description and act on this determination with its deletion (excepting some specific examples that already are covered by other CSD). That's why we have non-speedy deletion processes. —David Levy 05:00, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I hate to weigh in with the opponents after missing the initial discussion, but I'm also skeptical of this expansion of G8. The most obvious issue is that the phrase "non-encyclopedic" is highly subjective; there's also the fact that frequently images that were once used on deleted pages can be usefully reused on other existing pages. It's also a bit strange in that most images that are "self-published" are candidates for transwiki to Commons anyway, where they would be beyond the reach of CSD, and there is no similar speedy deletion rule on Commons, so this is easily circumvented. Dcoetzee 19:05, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

(See above reply to the Davids - all three of you are asking questions answered and discussed in the archived threads) Soundvisions1 (talk) 19:21, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I see no reply that satisfies why "non-encyclopedic" can be anything but subjective, even in those examples. And I see no need for that expansion. And I want to add that between Christmas and New Year many regular contributors here have contributed at a lower level or not at all, so I think you should have allowed more discussion. Regards So Why 21:31, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a strong opinion about this, but I do have to note that this conversation was opened on November 21st. 5 weeks seems like a pretty good allowance of time. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 21:37, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

An additional reason I object to this is because it makes images eligible for deletion that may not be useful in any currently existing article, but for which an article may be written in the future. If there were going to be a criterion along these lines, I would use language something to the effect of "an image that has no potential use in any article that exists or may ever exist"; which despite being more strict is still too subjective and really requires wider discussion to evaluate. Dcoetzee 22:56, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

That is part of the overall issue. Trying to maintain the "vague" feel and not get too much into instruction creep. Look at A9 and how it is worded - I believe one of the main reasons it passed was because it contains the qualifiers of "does not indicate why its subject is important or significant" and "where the artist's article has never existed or has been deleted". It is also "vague" in what would qualify as "important or significant". My original idea was based on wording such as that, except for images however it was discussed and refined to what it is now. For me, personally, I would love it to be more specific but the discussion flowed into what it became and was finally proposed. As Protonk (talk) mentioned below (and as I also mentioned in the archived threads) "no encyclopedic value" is a term used for images at IFD and PUI so why can it not be used in a CSD for images? Such as: "This only applies to orphaned images with no encyclopedic value" and than define "orphaned works" further as "left behind" when it's "parent" was removed. Sure we can define specific images such as blurry out of focus, myspace personal, self taken, photos left over from deleted userspace, CD covers and logos left behind when the SPA, COI, myspacey, non-notable type mainspace article was deleted. But the generally accepted policy here is we can not be that specific. Soundvisions1 (talk) 00:08, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

As Protonk (talk) mentioned below (and as I also mentioned in the archived threads) "no encyclopedic value" is a term used for images at IFD and PUI so why can it not be used in a CSD for images?

No offense, but I find it a bit scary that you're even asking that question.

IfD and PUI are processes that invite input from the Wikipedia community. Someone can nominate an image for deletion because he/she believes that it has "no encyclopedic value," but there must be general agreement (or lack of disagreement) that this assessment is accurate. One person's judgement is insufficient (regardless of whether that individual happens to possess the sysop bit). —David Levy 05:00, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I can see the purpose of this. Orphaned works with no "encyclopedic value" are often sent to IfD for days with no comment (search for "orhpaned, unencyclopedic, absent uploader" and you'll see what I mean) and then deleted. Covering them under a speedy criteria seems like a good solution to this problem. I object to the G8 choice from a semantic perspective--G8 is for non-controversial deletion of pages which are strictly subordinate to a deleted page. The only reason G8 exists is that the deletion software won't let us delete talk pages or sub-pages automatically (for the main examples). I feel uncomfortable placing deletions that can expect to be disputed under either G8 or G6. Protonk (talk) 19:24, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

This doesn't sound like an uncontroversial CSD criterion at all, really; more a subjective decision - PROD for images would be a better solution, which I know is being kicked around somewhere already. Happy‑melon 20:31, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, if we can "expect" a deletion "to be disputed," it shouldn't fall under any CSD. —David Levy 22:05, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Almost all deletions are disputed by someone. By that rationale you should make a proposal to "delete" most all of the CSD policies because they will cause disputes and controversy when applied. But seriously - read the archives other wise it is just repeating the entire thread again, which I can do - but it seems unneeded. Soundvisions1 (talk) 23:38, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Any deletion can be contested, but the CSD are intended to cover situations generally regarded as clear-cut and uncontroversial. This is neither.

Having now read the archived threads, I indeed see that this issue was raised. What I don't see is any sort of resolution. —David Levy 05:00, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Policies should not be ambiguous or confusing. If they are they need to be reworded. The fact that at least 3 of us who have not read all of the talk page history are confused by this change is strong evidence that CSD with the change included fails the not ambiguous or confusing test. If the goal is to provide a faster means than IFD to get rid of non-encyclopedic image-cruft, then fine, but it needs to be blatantly obvious in the affected CSD that this is the purpose of that CSD. It should also be blatantly obvious in talk page discussions that this goal is agreed upon. I personally don't think this is a worthy goal unless it's taking way too much time at IFD and there is a consensus that doing this by speedy rather than some form of image-PROD is the better solution. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 02:49, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Most all of the polices are somewhat "ambiguous or confusing". I am not saying that is bad, but more often than not I am of the "more specific and clear the better" but that goes against the wider concept that "less specific instruction is better". A PROD for images is really nothing more than what IFD/PUI currently does - now that is unneeded and a redundant process. It also has nothing to do what what this proposal is about or for. You say we now have three people who are confused. That is fair. However there were more than three people who were not as confused and who helped to guide this to where it is now. I am at the point of just saying screw it - lets start over and start form where I started 5 weeks ago. So, Ok - here goes - note several links have since been deleted. (I was going to just re-paste the entire tings but have decided not to) Soundvisions1 (talk) 03:29, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Again, that the addition made sense to the individuals involved in the discussions that led to its construction is of no help to everyone else. Of course, I don't even see consensus among those users. —David Levy 05:00, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I now have read the archived threads, and I still don't understand how this change makes sense (nor do I see anything remotely resembling consensus). —David Levy 05:00, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] New "i12"?

Is there a reason why images left behind from deleted articles or uploaded by SPA's trying to promote their own project can not be CSD'd? For example I just went through and did an IfD nom for each image that was upped by Nevermindthelove (I suspect related to Special:Contributions/76.112.179.112) who, clearly, was only here to try and insert his name into articles such as Grammy Award for Best Male R&B Vocal Performance (dif) and My Destiny (dif). We have an A9 for article about a musical recording that "has never existed or has been deleted", why not have something similar for images? Soundvisions1 (talk) 20:26, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Because A9 is much stricter than the above mentioned criterion. Images can be useful someday even if they are not used at the moment - but an admin cannot decide that alone. If those images were used for promotion only, I'd say G11 should clearly apply anyway and there is no need for another criterion. But if it's not so clear, then IfD should be the way. Regards So Why 09:54, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Heck, even 100% promotional images are not necessarily used in a promotional manner. How many historical advertisements were in your High School US History Text book? I know there were plenty in mine.---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 10:48, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

(November 21, 2008 reply) As I go through images almost every day I am finding them everyday. (Also articles are being deleted every day as well) And I am only going through the "Self-published work" images. In the example above it is pretty obvious where as some are not so much. Lots of band promos, logos, production stills, movie posters, "cd covers" and lots of misc little things such as icon sized images that seem to be a throw back to the early days of the internet. And to be clear I am not talking about obvious unused shots of, say, the latest Jewel CD cover or an used movie still from "Wall-e". I have done a few G11'a but, as has been discussed here concerning articles, it has to be pretty blatant. An unused promo shot from a non-notable bands failed attempt at getting an article is not really a G11. And I have only done one G3 because it was very blatant. Many of the current image CSD's come close, but not quite. For example a CD cover really should be under fair use, and if it was unused it could be i5'd but take a look at the example user I gave above. These were all "self made" and none were claimed under fair use, so if I had tagged them all i5 the overseeing admin would have declined the request. The same could be said for a self made movie poster, promo shot, production still and even frame grabs. I suppose G8 could apply here as it covers "Pages dependent on a non-existent or deleted page" but if that is used doesn't that open up the entire "The article just wasn't created yet" argument? I am open to using that, I just never have. Feedback welcome. (Edit: I tagged a few images with a G8 so we will see how that goes.) Soundvisions1 (talk) 23:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC

(January 2, 2009 reply) Also, in terms of "Images can be useful someday even if they are not used at the moment" - this would clearly fall under "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball", "Wikipedia is not a blog, webspace provider, social networking, or memorial site" - number 2 - "File storage areas" and also touch on "Wikipedia is not your web host". I have come across images orphaned over two years ago when the parent article was deleted for being "non-notable". Someone made that choice to delete the article because it's subject was "non-notable" and, as with most of these cases, it leaves behind images. Put another way: Say I create an article on a 3 year old that said "Someday this three year old will do something of note" and uploaded various mommy/daddy type snapshots of the three year old doing, well, three year old things for use in the article and placed them in the article. Anyone can come along and make a choice - is this article true? Why? But there is a very good chance this will not be asked on the talk page or asked of the creator - instead someone, admin or not, will decide if G1 or G2 might apply. If not they may decide A1 or A7 apply. The "good faith" editors may PROD it first citing the subject doe not meet the notability guideline for biographies, that is fails to follow the "Biographies of living persons" policy and, most obvious, that "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball". AFD might be an option as well but once a few "Speedy" comments are logged there is a high probability it will be closed and speedied. It is rare but some, perhaps Balloonman ^PoppaBalloon and So Why, may do nothing at all feeling that eventualism works just fine in this case. But based on what really happens I don't see a PROD being done or "nothing" being done. Most likely it would be speedied because Wikipedia history shows articles with subjects more notable than a random three year old have been CSD'd. Now - as it comes back to the images - after the article is gone, orphaned images would still be in place. G11 would not apply at all. Nor would any of the current CSD image criteria. In reality the CSD that comes close to describing the situation is G8 - "Pages dependent on a non-existent or deleted page". And it also clearly says "This excludes any page which is useful to the project" so by default this tag fits the scenario of images that were dependent on a page (article) that was deleted and are not "useful to the project". So if the consensus is that adding the word "image" to G8 is not acceptable, and that i11 does not/should not include "image, sound, nor video files" that would leave creating a new criteria. Soundvisions1 (talk) 15:24, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

1. You're badly misconstruing the meaning of "pages dependent on a non-existent or deleted page." This refers to technical issues, not editorial ones.

2. You've omitted one of our options: retaining the status quo.

In the above example, I don't want a sysop to unilaterally determine that an image like this should be deleted because its "parent article" was about a non-notable three-year-old. I want the community to arrive at the conclusion that it's a useful addition to the Toddler article. —David Levy 16:03, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Clearly if the entire set of criteria at Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion were only for "technical issues" and not "editorial ones" it would say as much and it would be brought up time after time. G6 is the only criteria that explicitly states "Technical deletions". The only other place on the entire CSD page where it refers to "technical" is under "categories" where it says: "Due to technical restrictions, renaming or merging a category effectively deletes the original category." In that case you are correct - it is due to a technical reason that "renaming or merging a category effectively deletes the original category" and not an editorial reason. I am getting the underlying concept that some editors feel that admins (or any other editor) should not be allowed to use their own judgment ever. There are differences between "editorial" and "judgment". For example editorial choices are made when anyone adds or removes content from a page/article, and this includes such things as blanking pages, creating articles, creating userspace pages that contain text in a readable form that may also contain personal information and files (i.e - images) not suitable for mainspace articles, uploading files or using the G7 tag. In doing any of those it it true that it should involve someones "judgment" as to why they are doing it because, overall, they go hand in hand. However, while Wikipedia is based on the idea that anyone can edit the content there are people placed, somewhat, in "charge" of policy enforcement such as what is being discussed here - deletions. When it comes to CSD anyone can use (invoke/make the nom/place the tag) them but only admins can act (push the "delete button") on them. As has been discussed many times an admin can use their own "judgment" to act upon it - they can look at the nom and feel it is the wrong one and use another. That is currently the "status quo". It is clear you are against any "one admin makes a choice/one admin uses their judgment" policy so, with that in mind and no disrespect, perhaps it would be better to take the discussion on overall CSD policy to another location and/or thread. This thread is an attempt at creating or adding to existing criteria that addresses images uploaded and categorized as "Self-published work" that were uploaded for use on a user page or specific article and where the image has been orphaned for whatever reason (i.e - deletion of "parent" by whatever means - AFD, MFD, CSD) and that are not "encyclopedic" (i.e - "[not] useful to the project", "lacking sufficient context to identify the subject", "does not indicate why its subject is important or significant", "have no foreseeable encyclopedic use" etc). (← before someone asks - those are current, existing, wordings found in various deletion criteria. I feel they are fine and understand why they are "vague" but for images, if consensus it to add extremely narrow and specific wording, these could "translate" to criteria such as "blurry and out of focus", "very low resolution", "thumbnail", "underexposed resulting in an almost black image" or "overexposed to the point of an almost all white image", "uploaded by a user who only created "self" article(s) that was/were deleted and uploaded image(s) with an unknown subject due to lack of summary information causing a lack of sufficient context to identify the subject once the "parent" article was delted", "uploaded by a user who only created "self" article(s) that was/were deleted and uploaded self created image(s) reflecting their desire to be a 'star' but due to lack of sufficient context to identify the subject once the "parent" article was deleted the image would be not useful to the project" and/or "personal image that was used on a userpage that will have no foreseeable encyclopedic use") Soundvisions1 (talk) 17:47, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

(From December 1, 2008. --Moonriddengirl asked about certain images and I replied. This is what I said but using the image David Levy used above) See my examples above. The ones you gave are generic enough they can be sent to commons if they were orphaned, maybe not "important or significant" but usable as, say, stock images. A better quesiton would be what is the difference between File:A child running.jpg (--Moonriddengirl's example - Image:Ceeiling fan.JPG) and Image:Breakinupsingle.jpg or File:AndreDeJuanFace.JPG and how best to word it. Maybe "Encyclopedic content"? Soundvisions1 (talk) 19:41, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, I did not claim that "the entire set of criteria at Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion were only for 'technical issues'." I explicitly stated that the wording "pages dependent on a non-existent or deleted page" refers to technical issues. And good heavens, I can't believe that you're attempting to refute that by pointing out that it doesn't contain the word "technical." It doesn't need to. All of the examples are technical in nature.

A talk page is supposed to have a corresponding subject page at a specific title. A subpage is supposed to have a parent page at a specific title. An image page should not exist without a corresponding image (either here or at Commons). Redirects are supposed to lead somewhere. Categories formerly populated by templates that no longer exist are vestigial.

All of the above are situations in which a technical issue prevents a page from functioning as intended. The proposed addition, conversely, requires a sysop to take a fully functional image, arbitrarily assign a nonexistent "parent article," and unilaterally deem the image "non-encyclopedic."

Secondly, no one has suggested that "that admins (or any other editor) should not be allowed to use their own judgment ever" or opposed the existence of "any 'one admin makes a choice/one admin uses their judgment' policy." We're saying that no one person is qualified to determine that an image should be deleted because it's "non-encyclopedic" (a highly subjective and controversial assessment) or because it has no "parent article" (an arbitrary concept that you've yet to fully explain).

You appear to have a very poor understanding of what it means to be a Wikipedia administrator, and I'll keep this in mind if you ever seek the mob and bucket (a term commonly used because administrators are janitors who act in accordance with the community's judgement, not bosses who substitute our own judgement).

Thirdly, I used your example of an image that would be deleted under the proposed addition:

Say I create an article on a 3 year old that said "Someday this three year old will do something of note" and uploaded various mommy/daddy type snapshots of the three year old doing, well, three year old things for use in the article and placed them in the article.

You now realize that your own example was poor (because the images in question could be useful), and this is precisely the sort of thing that occurs at IfD. The proposed addition would eliminate that stage by consecrating a random sysop's gut reaction. —David Levy 20:32, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if I even should reply to your comment(s) but I will anyway. You are off base...way off base. You gave a very specific example of an image (File:A child running.jpg) and I replied with the exact same reply I used when --Moonriddengirl gave very specific examples. Perhaps you missed that - "The ones you (Note - "you" in this case refers to David Levy) gave are generic enough they can be sent to commons if they were orphaned, maybe not "important or significant" but usable as, say, stock images." And I then asked "what is the difference between File:A child running.jpg (--Moonriddengirl's example - Image:Ceeiling fan.JPG) and Image:Breakinupsingle.jpg or File:AndreDeJuanFace.JPG" and how would you (again - you in this context is meant for David Levy) put that into words. As for my example - it was also clear in that the text would read "Someday this three year old will do something of note" and have "various mommy/daddy type snapshots" placed on the article. What was not clear, because I gave no specific image, is what I "saw" when I typed the description - so unless you are currently in my mind reading my visual cues there is no way your image is what I saw. Perhaps I should have said - uploads 10 or various mommy/daddy type snapshots, out of focus, dark, sideways, cut off head, bad framing - overall poor images that, outside of "mommy or Daddy" would have no "encyclopedic" use. Another example is that when my daughter was born, between my wife and I, we must have several hundred photos from the first year alone - real photos, shot on film and printed. Had we had digital we would have several thousand images. Per your suggestion above of images being useful even if not being used that nay be fine however th wider Wikipedia community does not appear to hold that same feeling. If it did, outside of copyvios and failed fair use claims, we would never delete any images. We would toss things such as "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball" out the window. A this point I will hit my cyber "ignore" button unless you can add somehting contractive to the conversation at hand. You have made you're opinion clear on the matter at hand. (and a few other matters as well). Soundvisions1 (talk) 21:09, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

1. You're right; I'm not a mindreader. You referred to "various mommy/daddy type snapshots of the three year old doing, well, three year old things," and now you're inexplicably amending that to add "out of focus, dark, sideways, cut off head, bad framing - overall poor images," which are issues that likely warrant deletion regardless of whether the images are categorized as "self-published" or lack "parent articles." But said deletion should not be speedy, as such quality assessments are highly subjective and should be presented for the community's evaluation. It's beyond a sysop's purview to unilaterally determine that images (apart from specific examples already covered by other CSD) have "no encyclopedic use."

2. You state above that "[the] wider Wikipedia community does not appear to hold" the view that "images [might be] useful even if not being used." On what do you base this assertion?

3. You also state that "if [the Wider Wikipedia community] did, outside of copyvios and failed fair use claims, we would never delete any images." What on Earth are you talking about? No one said anything about keeping non-useful images. We're merely saying that sysops lack the authority to unilaterally determine which images are and aren't useful. That's why IfD exists.

You can "ignore" me if you wish (as you evidently did when other editors expressed the same concerns), but it won't make the issues go away. —David Levy 22:11, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I think we are trying to solve a non-issue: If the images are uploaded "free" and fit within commons:Commons:Project scope, transwiki. If they are not free then as soon as they go orphan, speedy-delete under I5/Unused free images criteria. Spammers and promoters don't upload a whole lot of free images that are outside the scope of the commons. It's a small enough number that those can go to IFD. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 16:40, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. —David Levy 16:45, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

My replies below from the archived portions of this discussion Soundvisions1 (talk) 18:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

(From November 22, 2008) I also wanted to re-state that I am only talking about images that are in the Self-published work category. I know many images are put there to bypass copyright issues and because the uploader really does not get that grabbing an image form myspace is wrong, and I am not talking about those obvious cases where a tag such as {{di-no permission}} or {{db-imgcopyvio}} will work. For example there is Image:Noir Pictures Logo.jpg and it was tagged, first, by myself on November 12 under CSD i3 as the uploader/creator/copyright holder clearly states it is to only be used on Wikipedia. Another editor came along and removed the CSD tag explaining that Wikipedia can claim fair use no matter what the creator/copyright holder stated and added a fair use tag and rationale. The parent article was deleted on November 21 so I added a CSD i5 but than, after thinking about it, and the discussion here, I changed it to a G8. Another editor now has added the {{di-orphaned fair use}} tag and the problem I see with this is, first, the wording of "This image or media is unlicensed for use on Wikipedia..." which is just the opposite of what the creator/copyright holder has said which is "I have personally designed this logo myself and fully approve of its use on wikipedia, but I do not approve of its use anywhere else online or otherwise without my direct authority or supervision." The only reason the editor added the {{di-orphaned fair use}} is because of the earlier CSD denial where another editor added FUR to the image. This is why I think something specific is needed in these "orphan/unused image" cases. While I can understand the idea behind the "if they're free, we oughta' keep 'em around and move 'em to commons" comment I feel that is too broad of a statement. Going back to Nevermindthelove's images does anyone think they should be all kept and moved to Commons? It is a legit quesiton, I am not being sarcastic. In cases such as that and such as the, now orphaned, Noir logo, rather than saying "Well you could use this, if it is that, or you might be able to use that one as long as it were that..." we could just say something along the lines of "Unused images categorized as "Self-published work", and licensed under CCL or GFDL, that do not indicate why the subject is important or significant, that are not used in any articles, or where the article has never existed or has been deleted. Reasonable exceptions may be made for images uploaded for an upcoming article. This excludes any image which is useful to the project, and in particular any image pages or talk pages for images that exist on Wikimedia Commons." I also think this would cut way down on the IfD noms that are done, not only by myself, but by others. Soundvisions1 (talk) 14:25, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

(Also from November 22, 2008 - part of my reply to address the same type of question) I am not asking about non-free files, I thought I had made that clear. If you are referring to the Noir logo you may have misread why I was citing it/asking about it - this is a "user created" image that was uploaded for use only on Wikipedia, it was not a logo that was taken from, say, the Warner Bros official website for use in an article about the company and is no longer being used. This image only got tagged with a FUR, "non-free" use, because an editor objected to my "for Wikipedia use only" based CSD. Also I may be misreading "Non-commercial only and By Permission Only Images to be deleted - May 19, 2005" which says "As of today, all *new* images which are "non commercial only" and "with permission only" should be deleted on sight." I don't see where any form of image is excluded from that and I also may be misunderstanding what "deleted on sight" means in relationship to CSD i3. Likewise "Clearing up Wikimedia's media licensing policies - February 8, 2007" says "It is for these reasons, which we have long supported, that all media on Wikimedia sites which are used under terms that specify non-commercial use only, no-derivatives only, or permission for Wikimedia only, need to be be phased out and replaced with media that does not have these restrictions." and I see no mention of excluding a user created image that says it can only be used on Wikipedia from being speedied under CSD i3. Please tell me if I misread something in those two policy setting emails/posts.

(More from the same reply) I am just trying to point out that we have a specific CSD for musical recordings that points out that if it "does not indicate why its subject is important or significant and where the artist's article has never existed or has been deleted" it can be speedied. We have a CSD for overall articles that, if they do "not indicate why its subject is important or significant", can be speedied. We have a general CSD that includes "image pages" and says if they exist "without a corresponding image" the page can be deleted. What we don't have is anything that is specific to an image that is unused, do not indicate why the subject is important or significant or orphaned because the parent article has been deleted. Likewise we are very specific that "Wikipedia is not" a "myspace" type of social networking site but there is nothing specific to Wikipedia being a personal image hosting service. I have come across more than one image that is only being used in the uploaders own personal photo gallery and no where else. I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that if a personal photo gallery, such as User:Wellus/Photo/2007, was deleted than so should the images that would be orphaned by it's deletion. Thanks. Soundvisions1 (talk) 20:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

"I license this for Wikipedia but noplace else" is a special case of "non-free image" where orphaned images are not eligible for speedy deletion under I5. In particular, they are ineligible for moving to the commons. Is this really a common enough problem to warrant speedy? I think IFD can handle this nicely. It's my understanding that A9 and A11 exist because otherwise AFD would be overloaded. Besides, if a spammer also used this image on his personal user space, then you couldn't speedy that without also speedying all the other same-permissioned novelty images users create and put on their user space. That would create chaos. Suppose this did get approved but excluded images used in user space to avoid the aformentioned chaos. Spammers and promoters would start using the image in user space to avoid having their image speedied, forcing either an IFD of the image or a speedy- or MFD of their user page. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 18:26, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Valid questions and concerns - I5 was raised because of using an example where a user created image (and "user created" is really important in this entire proposal) stated it was created for, and to be used only on, Wikipedia. It would fall under i3 - used or not, orphaned or not. But in this case this user create image was a logo for use in that users self created mainspace article on that users company. Now there were other issues introduced. As far as images go there is no, nor should there be IMO, any restrictions about a user, who is the subject of (Of whose company is the subject of) a mainspace article, uploading any self-published/user created image be it a logo CD cover, poster or a picture of their "naughty bits" for use in the article. But there is an issue if they state it can not be used outside of Wikipedia. According to "Non-commercial only and By Permission Only Images to be deleted - May 19, 2005" that type of image should be "deleted on site". As it relates to this proposal the issue that came into play with the specific image is that, because it was a logo, an editor felt i3 did not work because logos can be claimed under fair use and that is all the mattered. Now, when the "parent article" was deleted I felt that the image clearly would have no "encyclopedic use" for Wikipedia because it was, now, an orphaned, user created, image specifically done for Wikipedia for use in a specific article. The qualifiers here should be "user created" or "Self-published" and not that is was a logo. This is an issue that arose from this thread - should user created and user uploaded images such as logos, cd covers, promo pictures, posters and so on be included or excluded? It was suggested that any such item should fall under i5, tagged or not with a FUR. So I have, more or less, gone with that as long as the parent article still exists. In the larger sense, when the "parent" does not exist I feel, and based on other comments others also feel, there could be some form of CSD that would allow images that are part of an article that was deleted ("article specific images" if you will) to be deleted speedily. I see no reason, for example, why, when a teenager plays with their own image and creates a make believe CD cover out of it, uploads it here under a free license, and places it into a mainspace article they created, the image should be excluded from deletion because, as was worded above, it "can be useful someday even if they are not used at the moment". Likewise I would see no logic to tagging every user created image image as an i5 because the image was like other images that did fall under i5. (ie - CD cover) The core issue is not about the type of image (Free vs non-free) but about how they are dealt with once their use is no longer "blatantly obvious".

The other important part of this that the proposal is not aimed at "spammers". We have G11 that would cover "Blatant advertising". it is important to note that not all images uploaded and then orphaned are "spam". For example if an image orphaned when it's "parent" on "show" was deleted via A7 said "See this show for only 9.95 December 25 at this venue" it would be fairly blatant, but an image that showed the front of Radio City Music Hall may not be even if the marque is "advertising" something, and that would be the deleting admins judgment as well to do either if it were a CSD. G11 is used on images when that are used or not, orphaned or not. Outside of "blatant advertising" images can be uploaded in full "good faith", including self made CD covers, but may not have any real use outside of the "parent". Here is the example I used December 2, 2008 at it relates to userspace: "I do not think user space "user portraits" should be excluded and if they are unused and/or orphaned and they are not encyclopedic. The image Becky5.jpg (along with three like images) was just orphaned and is a user page image. The Bhati.png user image is another user portrait that, if it were orphaned, would not have much encyclopedic use." In these cases I would not call the users "spammers" at all. G11 would be speedily declined if used. Yes the "becky" images were taken to IFD but the quesiton I ask - was there any real need to? It appears there may be missing emphasis on what the qualifiers are in the proposal - it is not a blanket policy as you suggest would "cause chaos". It is for images only (not other forms of files) that are "orphaned" (however to be "vauge" the "usused and orphaned" came into play) and have no encyclopedic use. (or no foreseeable use). A9 is a perfect example of this - it needed to state that, in order to qaulify, it must be an article on any musical release that not only "does not indicate why its subject is important or significant" but also "where the artist's article has never existed or has been deleted" That is very important and for images the same form of qualifier should be in place.

userspace is not exempt from CSD criteria - images residing solely on/in userspace can be, and have been, deleted via G11. Likewise most of the image criteria can be applied to image in userspace as well so the suggestion that "Spammers and promoters would start using the image in user space to avoid having their image speedied" doesn't hold up unless there is a broad proposal made to exclude userspace from all of the criteria for speedy deletion. Soundvisions1 (talk) 20:34, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I love the strawman thrown in there with my name and Sowhy's. The issue isn't whether or not specific images should be kept, but rather whether or not they should be speedily deleted. Writing a CSD criteria that is likely to be used carelessly and potentially delete some valid pictures is not a viable alternative. IFD is always an option.---Balloonman ^PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 20:07, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

You put it nice and short. As you say, Balloonman, we do not talk about keeping or not, we talk about whether an admin can decide it in speedy deletion. And I maintain that they can't. Regards So Why 00:51, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Ballonman, I am glad you got that. I think it is very important to note that the concept of "Images can be useful someday even if they are not used at the moment" goes against other concepts in use. Articles are often speedied because it's subject is not notable and, even if at some point it's subject may be notable, we don't allow the articles to stay. Because of what this propsal is, that response says, to me, that an image uploaded and once used to represent a now "deleted for not being notable" article may, at some point be useful because it's subject may be notable at some point. In which case I strongly feel the article should have been be kept and not deleted as well. If that is not what was meant than someone explain how it relates to the type if images being discussed...which are images left behind when their "parent" is deleted. And that is part of the reason why this whose issue was brought up in the first place. As you said "The issue isn't whether or not specific images should be kept, but rather whether or not they should be speedily deleted." As you asked/suggested in the original thread something like this could go under i10 and I said that criteria specifically excludes images. There was no suggestion by yourself, or anyone else, that i10 been changed to include images at that time. If that is the feeling you still hold however by all means feel free to make a proposal. I never said that would be a bad idea, only that adding the comment that was proposed at that time would not work in i10. Also, because at that time, it had morphed into "G" proposal going back to an "i" criteria seemed to be a step backwards. However I want to say that where it goes is not the issue to me - the issue is how this type if image should be addressed. I thought the wording issue was cleared up but now editors have voiced other opinions about wording but, unlike before, I have seen no-one offering alternative wording.

Here is core base: Images only (not other forms of files) that are "orphaned" and have no "encyclopedic" use. As a reminder again - the first proposal did not have that qualifier. There was no use of the word "encyclopedic" but when a clarifier was asked about, that word, or like wording, fit. From what I see now, the current editors involved have issues with the use of any variation of "encyclopedic". The wording of "cannot be used in another article" was suggested in the original thread so if that works I will add that. But I want to say that in looking at some of the existing criteria it is used. In G11 (Which is also used for images) the phrasing of "Pages that exclusively promote some entity and that would need to be fundamentally rewritten to become encyclopedic" is used but it does not define what "encyclopedic" is. i10 says that a file must not only be "unused" but adds the qualifier of "and have no foreseeable encyclopedic use" but it does not define what would be considered "encyclopedic use" or what would allow a file to be used in the future should it meet that. In looking under the article/essay/guideline/"how-to" on "Donating copyrighted materials" the phrase "In particular, we try not to include content that is below an encyclopedic level of notability." is used with a link to Encyclopedia. In the image use policy, when discussing fair use images, the wording of "Unfree images are only allowed as long as they are in actual use in an article for encyclopedic purposes" is used but does not fully define what "encyclopedic purposes" are. Good or bad, the words use on Wikiepdia is not up to me but I do not have an issue with the word because it is used a lot and seemed clear in it's meaning when I suggested it. However it seems clear now that is is not that clear to other editors. In looking for other alternative wording, other than the one that was suggested, I like G8's wording that excludes what may not be "useful to the project" but I fear that would be even more vague.

As for the sending of files if IfD/Pui. I have said that is not any problem and no one said that was not an option, I know I never did. But if those participating feel that fact need